Menzerna FMJ not durable?

[imported_memnuts]

I am somewhat confused with this discussion. What is the point of adding a protectant to the finish if it does protect against commonly encountered environmental hazards? Why not just add a glaze if the protectant will not withstand a 30 minute encounter with anything except road debris (i.e. pebbles and rocks)?



Obviously you did not have this type of problem with any of your previous protectant. Why would you accept this type of poor performance now?



Are we just looking for excellent beading, appearance enhancement and easy application? Birds are not going anywhere and if you are willing to continue to accept etching after every episode, well I think I answered my own question.



I personally would not accept this lack of protection from any product even on my garage queen and write it off to a bird's diet. JMHO

 

[imported_Picus]

That's the thing; this would have happened with any product. I've cleaned 2 week old bird poop of cars with no wax/sealant and seen no damage, I've also cleaned 10 minute old poop of cars with multiple layers of sealants and waxes and seen etchings. The issue is the acidity of the poop on the car, which stems from what the bird ate. No sealant/wax will protect against a particularly acidic bird dropping.

 

[maxpower]

""Anyways, back to the durability issue, is there anything else I could be doing to boost the durability of FMJ? On the day that I detailed I polished with IP, FPII and topped off with FTG. Then applied two layers of FMJ back to back . . . . the 3rd layer didn't seem to want to really stick to the paint, so I waited a day later and dusted and applied a 3rd layer of FMJ. Perhaps a topper of a good polymer wax or maybe use SG underneath the FMG?""



Menzerna calls for at least 12 hours cure time for FMJ before adding additional layers, so 2 layers back to back is not effective.

 

[crew219]

Menzerna calls for at least 12 hours cure time for FMJ before adding additional layers, so 2 layers back to back is not effective.

Are you sure about that? There's no mention of it on the back of the bottle, nor in the application guide. In fact it makes it sound like it is purely a WO/WO application.



Either way, the 3rd layer was applied about 18 hours afterwards.



Dave

 

[maxpower]

Are you sure about that? There's no mention of it on the back of the bottle, nor in the application guide. In fact it makes it sound like it is purely a WO/WO application.



Either way, the 3rd layer was applied about 18 hours afterwards.



Dave

'Are you sure about that?'



Yes, I actually called the folks at properautocare.com to check since most sealants call for a cure time. They said Menzerna recommended 12-24 cure time between coats and that the instructions on the bottle were not very clear. Thats probably why the 3rd coat after 18 hours went on so much better. FMJ is one of my favorites!

 

[imported_memnuts]

That's the thing; this would have happened with any product. I've cleaned 2 week old bird poop of cars with no wax/sealant and seen no damage, I've also cleaned 10 minute old poop of cars with multiple layers of sealants and waxes and seen etchings. The issue is the acidity of the poop on the car, which stems from what the bird ate. No sealant/wax will protect against a particularly acidic bird dropping.

I lived on the Massachusetts coast for over 40 years and no bird poop is more damaging than seagull droppings. Back than, I only used carnuaba-based products and did not have an etching problem "if" the poop was cleaned off within a timely manner.



I live in a "bird santuary" rural city now and get an occassional dropping that will probably stay in place for several hours (I never clean off until I get home where there is a complete arsenal of products to clean and correct any problem. Normally all that is needed is water (actually mixture of QEW and water), a soft MF and some Z8. Sometimes the blemish created in the sealant coat requires re-application of the sealant and maybe a mild polishing session, but no paint etching in the clearcoat.



My point is that a protectant, be it a carnuaba-based or sealant type product should offer some protection. If not, why bother applying it. :think:



This is not a knock against any product but a rebuttal against accepting poor product performance based on the obstacles that every driven vehicle will encounter somewhere down the road.





Question about increasing protection: the Klasse (old version)SG, Zaino or maybe even the Werkstatt Jett under the FMJ may help in increase the window of opportunity to remove the poop before paint etching occurs.

 

[crew219]

'Are you sure about that?'



Yes, I actually called the folks at properautocare.com to check since most sealants call for a cure time. They said Menzerna recommended 12-24 cure time between coats and that the instructions on the bottle were not very clear. Thats probably why the 3rd coat after 18 hours went on so much better. FMJ is one of my favorites!

Hmm they should really improve their instructions / packaging then. Good to know . . . thanks! :bigups



Dave

 

[crew219]

I lived on the Massachusetts coast for over 40 years and no bird poop is more damaging than seagull droppings. Back than, I only used carnuaba-based products and did not have an etching problem "if" the poop was cleaned off within a timely manner.



I live in a "bird santuary" rural city now and get an occassional dropping that will probably stay in place for several hours (I never clean off until I get home where there is a complete arsenal of products to clean and correct any problem. Normally all that is needed is water (actually mixture of QEW and water), a soft MF and some Z8. Sometimes the blemish created in the sealant coat requires re-application of the sealant and maybe a mild polishing session, but no paint etching in the clearcoat.



My point is that a protectant, be it a carnuaba-based or sealant type product should offer some protection. If not, why bother applying it. :think:



This is not a knock against any product but a rebuttal against accepting poor product performance based on the obstacles that every driven vehicle will encounter somewhere down the road.





Question about increasing protection: the Klasse (old version)SG, Zaino or maybe even the Werkstatt Jett under the FMJ may help in increase the window of opportunity to remove the poop before paint etching occurs.

I hear what you're talking about . . . . I do believe that the bird's diet did have a lot to do with the etching but will try out what you suggested. Polished it out a bit more today and the etching is really contained to two spots about half the size of a dime.



Will probably try out Z2 pro underneath with the FMJ topper since I had such great results with the zaino last year. Purchased the Menzerna because the sonus polishes just weren't doing it for me and opted to try out FMJ since I had it laying around.



BTW . . . love the avatar . . .



Dave

 

[imported_SHICKS]

That's the thing; this would have happened with any product. I've cleaned 2 week old bird poop of cars with no wax/sealant and seen no damage, I've also cleaned 10 minute old poop of cars with multiple layers of sealants and waxes and seen etchings. The issue is the acidity of the poop on the car, which stems from what the bird ate. No sealant/wax will protect against a particularly acidic bird dropping.

I got some pretty bad etching from what looked like potting soil. I assume it was very acidic, ate right through IW 845 no problem.



Steve

 

[imported_NHBFAN]

Will probably try out Z2 pro underneath with the FMJ topper since I had such great results with the zaino last year.

You don't expect "bonding issues" with Z2 underneath FMJ?



I don't know ... just asking.

 

[crew219]

You don't expect "bonding issues" with Z2 underneath FMJ?



I don't know ... just asking.

Never know until I try it . . .



I did throw some FMJ on top of AIO just right now . . . . that seemed to work just fine.



Dave

 

[crew219]

Any thoughts on using either of these two bulk quick detailers / waterless washes?



http://www.chemicalguys.com/Waterless_Car_wash_p/wac_116.htm



IIRC this stuff is the same as the PB waterlesswash . . .



http://www.chemicalguys.com/Spray_Wipe_Quick_Detailer_p/wac_114.htm



Looking for something that I could use on the car every 2-3 days to keep it dust & grime free.



Dave

 

[docker]

'Are you sure about that?'



Yes, I actually called the folks at properautocare.com to check since most sealants call for a cure time. They said Menzerna recommended 12-24 cure time between coats and that the instructions on the bottle were not very clear. Thats probably why the 3rd coat after 18 hours went on so much better. FMJ is one of my favorites!

I had the same conversation with them a few months ago and they said 'overnight, or 8 to 12 hours should be sufficient'. The few times I've used FMJ I've applied a layer in the AM, then another layer late PM, then another mid AM next day. This allows about 8 to 9 hours between each layer and has performed very well like this and produces a very clear, reflective finish.



I treat frequently with HGAS - about 2x per week - to make sure the slickness is retained and to add depth, not to mention assure durability.



The few times I've had bird bombs they have just wiped off real easily with a little S&W and MF. Granted, Indiana birds don't drop 'em like the sea gulls but none the less the FMJ/HGAS has provided an exceptionally slick layer of protection.

 

[imported_Picus]

I lived on the Massachusetts coast for over 40 years and no bird poop is more damaging than seagull droppings. Back than, I only used carnuaba-based products and did not have an etching problem "if" the poop was cleaned off within a timely manner.



I live in a "bird santuary" rural city now and get an occassional dropping that will probably stay in place for several hours (I never clean off until I get home where there is a complete arsenal of products to clean and correct any problem. Normally all that is needed is water (actually mixture of QEW and water), a soft MF and some Z8. Sometimes the blemish created in the sealant coat requires re-application of the sealant and maybe a mild polishing session, but no paint etching in the clearcoat.



My point is that a protectant, be it a carnuaba-based or sealant type product should offer some protection. If not, why bother applying it. :think:



This is not a knock against any product but a rebuttal against accepting poor product performance based on the obstacles that every driven vehicle will encounter somewhere down the road.





Question about increasing protection: the Klasse (old version)SG, Zaino or maybe even the Werkstatt Jett under the FMJ may help in increase the window of opportunity to remove the poop before paint etching occurs.

I don't know what to tell you; I've had instances where I literally wipe down a whole slew of bird poops off neglected, unprotected cars and see maybe one etching. Then things happen like a couple weeks ago, I'm at a Meet & Shine and a bird poops on my car; we all laugh seeing as we're all detailing cars (mine was just sitting), so I go over and wipe it off, and it had etched (significantly). The poop was on my car maybe 4 minutes and I had who knows how many layers of Z2pro and various carnauba waxes on there... I think it all has to do with what the bird eats and its digestive system. I've also had instances where I cleaned bird poop off cars with FMJ on them and not seen etchings... I really do think it's just a matter of luck.



As for "why do we apply them?" well, they still protect against water spotting, UV damage etc... I just think it's too much to ask of any sealant that it completely repel acidic bird droppings.



Mayber we're defining etching in a different way. I consider an etching anything that requires polishing to remove. In my experience a pretty big percentage of bird poop leaves at least minor etchings if left to sit for more than a couple hours, some in minutes...



I dunno.

 

[imported_memnuts]

Picus, I actually believe we are in agreement that every paint assault can not be warded off by any peculiar product or products. I have tested FMJ and have not seen any protective problems in my environment. What I may have poorly stated is the if a product does not perform well in the environment which one lives and the probability of re-occurrance is likely, one must find an alternative product or combo for protection.



A little prayer to the detailing gods also wouldn't hurt.

 

[imported_Picus]

Ah, gotchya. We agree then, especially about the praying.

 

[imported_Grouse]

I prefer bird sacrifice,

 

[PINITI]

I am somewhat confused with this discussion. What is the point of adding a protectant to the finish if it does protect against commonly encountered environmental hazards? Why not just add a glaze if the protectant will not withstand a 30 minute encounter with anything except road debris (i.e. pebbles and rocks)?



Obviously you did not have this type of problem with any of your previous protectant. Why would you accept this type of poor performance now?



Are we just looking for excellent beading, appearance enhancement and easy application? Birds are not going anywhere and if you are willing to continue to accept etching after every episode, well I think I answered my own question.



I personally would not accept this lack of protection from any product even on my garage queen and write it off to a bird's diet. JMHO

Perhaps You may want to look into this newer '06 product that many feel easily Rivals Your current go to Sealant ... http://www.duragloss.com/product.asp?pid=336

Synthetic Polymer/Wax Formula. Super-tough coating forms a protective barrier which protect against acid rain, tree sap, bird droppings and other environmental pollutants.

 

[crew219]

Posted a few pics of the detail in the click & brag forum . . .



http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=74481



Also experimented with Klasse AIO + FTG + FMJ on a few spots . . . seems to work fine . . . might end up redoing the entire car like that at some point.



Dave

 

[RAG]

Keep in mind that no product can truly protect from bird bombs. I've seen bird poo eat through everything from caranuba wax to Zaino to Klasse, etc.... If the poo can etch paint quickly, then no sealant or wax is going to stand a chance....since the paint itself it stronger and more durable than any wax or sealant out there. Sometimes it depends on what the bird ate, as to how bad and acidic it will be. I don't know of any product out there that would protect from the worst of bird bombs. Don't blame the product, blame the bird.

Exactly. If it can eat through clear coat, then it'll sure go through wax/sealant. Unfortunately, I don't put nearly the amount of stock in sealants/wax as do most enthusiasts - I use them because they put the iceing on the cake, but they do very little in the way of true protection in my experience (in my experimenting, they certainly don't slow the rust contamintion process at all, and they do very little for various forms of chemical etching (bird bombs, etc.). They do however, allow dirt to be released a little easier during washing and rinsing...and they look and feel nice.